Episode 18 - Ethics in Voice

There are many different ethical issues that arise when computers behave or replace humans, and as designers and developers for voice we must be constantly thinking about the implications and side effects of our voice experiences. Brooke Hawkins joins this episode to tackle questions about how to identify ethical issues, think through them, and emphasizes the importance of bringing ethics up early and often.

Guest – Brooke Hawkins

Brooke Hawkins is a designer in the world of voice and conversational interfaces. Her experience in the industry is vast, having designed voice experiences for healthcare institutions, nonprofits, Fortune 500 companies, and startups. Brooke’s work sits at the intersection of designing useful and meaningful interactions, as well as creating scholarship around the ethics surrounding our future of living in a voice interface mediated world. Brooke has spoken at the IA Summit and the VOICE Summit, as well as a variety of industry podcasts like Machine Yearning, VoiceFirstFM and more. Brooke also is committed to training and educating a new generation of talent, and co-authored the Career Foundry course Intro to VUI design

Transcript

Jeremy Wilken
Welcome to design for voice. I’m your host, Jeremy Wilken. In today’s episode, we’re going to be looking at ethics and voice and how can we think about bringing ethics to the table throughout our discussions and our development and design of voice experiences so that we consider all users and are being more mindful of what we build and how it impacts people. Today, I’m joined by Brooke Hawkins, who will be giving us more insight into this topic. Welcome to the show, Brooke.

Brooke Hawkins
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jeremy Wilken
Why don’t you give us a bit of your background and how you got to get into ethics and voice experiences?

Brooke Hawkins
Sure. So for the majority of my career, I’ve been involved in the voice, world ecosystem. And prior to that I volunteered for AmeriCorps. So during that year, I actually did a Google sponsored program where I was teaching nonprofits how to use technology to scale their their work and do what they do better. So kind of from the get go, I’ve always been in trying At the intersection of technology, but used for kind of like social good or community building purposes. That’s always kind of top of mind for me. So after that year, I kind of dove in into the voice world. And I started working for a company based in Chicago called me. And they were we were designing IVR calls, basically, but they were calling patients all across the country on behalf of their doctors or healthcare providers, to remind people to get certain kinds of preventative health care appointments, or collect data about their health, or sometimes after a serious hospital stay, call them for sometimes up to 45 days to ask questions like a nurse word about how they were feeling and to remind them to take their medications to remind them to do different self care or no personal care things to keep them out of the hospital. And during that time, I really got embedded in kind of like the human relationship with Users and invoices. So there we did a lot of research and studying basically about how patients interacted with an an artificial voice or virtual assistant. We designed a personality that was friendly and helpful, but authoritative like a nurse, and we recorded with a real voice count. So this least call sounded as human as possible. But ultimately, we’re an IBM, Oracle. So computer. And that really set I would say the foundation of my career in terms of seeing exactly how a voice and artificial personalities or voice interfaces could help and were revolutionary in that setting for users to get them to schedule appointments and create an atmosphere that wasn’t judging and made people feel comfortable because ultimately, they knew they were speaking with the computer, but also created this environment of warmth and trust and allowed people to really build Relationships with interface. We’ve been had some users that had received those 30 to 45 day calls, say things like, they felt that they were talking to their girlfriend or they would miss their girlfriend. So that was a really interesting way to start my forehead voice. But during that time, Google and Alexa all launch, they’re smart speakers. So the industry was kind of busting, couldn’t be exploding into a more saturated voice ecosystem. People with IVR backgrounds obviously knew how to design for voice and that kind of made me want to go see what else is out there. So then I got a job at Nuance Communications, I design chat bots for different fortune 500 companies, and really got my feet and hands dirty with designing natural language interfaces for for big companies. So seeing thousands and thousands of conversations come through and what customers had to ask and making sure that we were optimizing and conversation to always provide The correct answer for users. So after a little bit there, I relocated back to my home state of Michigan and most recently was working for a small company here designing an interactive virtual assistant at the retail shelf. So kind of thinking about how voice can be useful outside of traditional context where we think of voice and actually embedding it into different physical experiences. Yeah, so kind of all over the spectrum of voice. But I think ultimately, along the way, I’m always thinking about how users are building relationships with voice and ultimately, as companies or as individuals shaping those experiences, what impact we’re having on on users and how we’re kind of shaping their worlds in return.

Jeremy Wilken
I think with voice and you were alluding to it like the power of voice to influence people and their behavior subconsciously because of the, the, the medium essentially that there’s a lot of information about how I’m speaking What’s the tone? What’s the pace? What’s the inflection and things like that which are still quite actually are out of reach of computers from nailing all of those things, but maybe sooner than we realize. But when you emulate that, humans still receive those, those cues, even if the system isn’t aware of those things. And even if it is aware of those things, you have to be careful how they’re being utilized. So I think that’s a really interesting set of experiences that especially the healthcare IVR system, I think we could go into that a little bit further, maybe some time. But before we get too deep into a specific example, can we talk about ethics from a higher level with getting a basic understanding? What does the scope of ethics really include? Especially when we look at the voice space?

Brooke Hawkins
Sure, yeah. For me as a designer, I, I don’t know I let ethics take over every single part of what I’m thinking about all the time. So sometimes It feels big. But I think other times it can be more actionable. But in terms of how my job typically works working within a company, I would say the scope of ethics for me is kind of embedding the question of what means good for this user or for the users or the for the people that I’m designing for, in the context of the service that I’m providing them. So definitely, I think a lot of us designers are, you know, good people. And we always want to make sure that what we’re designing is influencing people for the better. I think some obvious aspects of ethics are things like, is this interface easy to use? Am I making sure that I’m getting people information in a succinct and easy and accessible way not preventing them from getting important information or access to certain things because of roadblocks in that way? And I think a lot of us are embedded in that primarily through the principles of UX design. But I think we’re my questions get A little deeper, and we’re trying to kind of push the industry and also people that I work with is kind of thinking about, aside from the designs that we’re creating kind of the ecosystem that we’re within, and constantly kind of posing questions about what is the worst case scenario or kind of what is the most negative outcome of what we’re creating, and then kind of pushing against that? So increasingly, my work I’m finding that it’s not just the role of the designer to ask those questions, but trying to involve higher up and other kind of lateral teams with these questions. So things like sales or things like our business and project and product managers, to essentially think critically about even how we’re framing our product in terms of are we creating something that’s actually useful to people? Is this infringing upon their access to things that may be more positive in some way, etc, etc, but basically kind of thinking about ethics as something the entire company and the product itself be critically engaging with.

Jeremy Wilken
I think that leads really well into the next question. And this is probably the one that I’ve heard in relation to other similar topics is like how do you even identify these types of ethical challenges or questions? And you mentioned it, the whole company should be responsible for it. But does somebody have to take the lead? Or how do you build that sense of responsibility across a whole company?

Brooke Hawkins
Definitely. That’s a very good question. I think a lot of designers in particular are trying to answer this question and think about how this could work. Yeah, I think definitely design can take a lead, because we’re close to users. And people that are using our products to identify ethical challenges or to identify problems that people are having with our products. But the further that I get in my design career, I’m finding that that potentially is is kind of late down the pipeline at that point. designers are kind of seeing problems that are happening to users, after a lot of decisions about what the product is or what kind of the business need has been identified. So I don’t know, I guess I encourage companies to hire designers much earlier in the process. I think a lot of companies I’ve worked, product decisions have been very tech and business LED. So we just encourage people to hire designers or, you know, customer experience, people are kind of ethicists if they identify themselves that way, much earlier upstream before a product is actually launched and pushed out into the world rather than optimizing after it exists. But I would also say you know that I’m also trying to figure this out as I go, so I should plug. I’m working with Emerson scar and a bunch of other designers in the industry. Upcoming for project voice the conference that’s happening for the voice industry in January and today See, but we’re working to kind of put together a position paper, what we’re calling it about kind of this like request for the industry as a whole to kind of grapple with ethics and as individuals and as, you know, companies and so forth. And to kind of outline, you know what, that there’s value in identifying these ethical challenges on that each of these different entities have some kind of responsibility. So very early stages, but I think it’s just to say that a lot of designers are hungry for an answer to this question, and some work is being done. So I will definitely continue to post about that as I work more on that.

Jeremy Wilken
Great And where will people be able to follow that action activity?

Brooke Hawkins
Sure, definitely a project voice. So if anyone is attending that conference in January, will be what kind of presenting some of that work there. But then also, I’m always doing writing on my personal channel. So on my Twitter is definitely a good way to find my information. I have links to this blog that I keep about ethics always though, so you can find all that there.

Jeremy Wilken
Okay, I’ll make sure to link those things in the show notes. So everyone can easily access that information from the website. So I think you’re right. And I’ve been looking at privacy, which is sort of a piece of the bigger ethical question with a lot of people and often the question is, okay, so we get so far down the road, and it’s this checkbox, like, did I infringe on someone’s privacy? Yes or no. And it’s always very difficult to even address that after the products developed. But if you start thinking about those questions very early on, and having those questions debated throughout the organization, throughout the development of the cycle of the product, I think you get a much better idea of what it is but that may mean straining from building something, you may decide that this could make us money, but we think it’s in at least in an ethical gray zone or no go zone. So how do you justify that as a business or with stakeholders, even if it’s something that users may want, but it has ethical repercussions?

Brooke Hawkins
That’s a really good question. So I guess you could have varying answers to this question, depending on how radical the person you’re asking this question would identify us. So sometimes, you know, the simple answer to me is that, I don’t know we live in kind of a capitalist environment. And you know, often business desires are like a return on investment, speaks volumes over what an actual quality of life would mean for a person. So obviously, I think some people would say that’s the problem and push against that. But kind of thinking about the system that we’re in and Kind of knowing that companies ultimately need to make money and, you know, be fiscally viable. People that are working within that system need to kind of balance those limitations. So how can we design something that’s good, but also be good for business? So it’s kind of a difficult middle place to be in. But I think ultimately, yeah, there are things that we can do as designers to kind of articulate that, that value to people who are perhaps more business minded or to the to ensure that the businesses successful while also kind of meeting users needs. I often like to look at catastrophic examples to to kind of shock people into understanding the value of thinking into ethical quandaries. So kind of looking at different failures of other companies that have tried to set out to design something, but ultimately, they weren’t great for the consumers that were trying to meet. And then showing kind of the negative flak that you They received in the press or that resulted in their company folding. So trying to connect in some way, you know, these ethical dilemmas with an actual loss of revenue or like a loss and success for operating a business, I think speaks volumes to people. Ultimately, that’s not the way I’d like to frame success for designing ethical experiences for users. Because I think, to me, that matters more than being a fiscally viable company or creating a, you know, like a financially successful business. But I think while we’re having those conversations, you know, we can frame them in this way in order to have a seat at the table. And then ultimately, I think when there are more ethicists at the table, that are making these higher decisions, perhaps we can kind of this is square one perhaps we can ask more complicated and be able to articulate for for ethical quandaries in a more nuanced way after we’re kind of crazy This link between the loss of revenue and these ethical quandary. So I hope that answers the question. Yeah.

Jeremy Wilken
Yeah, that’s a good Avenue the applying external pressure, or from from an external example is is a really good example. And what it does is brings the conversation. And in my mind, a lot of that is about the conversation. And there’s a couple of ways that you’ve mentioned that help drive that conversation. And it can be the designers that are pushing that it could be the sales folks are like, Hey, we saw this fail over here. And let’s talk about this.

Brooke Hawkins
Definitely, yeah. And I think unfortunately, we’re still in kind of early days of ethics, where we need to kind of connect them in some ways to a loss of revenue or some kind of financial metric. And I don’t think that will always be the case. I think as we see more and more of these, quote, unquote, failures, or more of the successes in terms of thinking about users and ethics will get to move away from framing it as like a financial positive or something. thing that is fiscally important to do and more toward like the essential this of that question.

Jeremy Wilken
I guess I’ve been operating with this assumption, but I think I want to put it out, make sure we clarify this for a moment. My assumption is that we can’t imagine ethics as a binary type choice where we’ve either succeeded or failed, where it’s more of a continuum. Is that the right line of thinking? And what are the repercussions of that?

Brooke Hawkins
I think so. I mean, ultimately, I think we’re always learning more, I do believe that ultimately, we launch things and we learn from them. And, and failure is the type of feedback. So there definitely are things to be learned when you’re launching something. And ultimately, you’re going to learn a lot more about kind of failures that you’ve done after you’ve launched something. So I totally agree. Yeah, I think in terms of ethics, and where I’m at thinking about this stuff today, I think, just getting more diverse perspectives earlier on to prevent some of those low hanging fruit or obvious ethical quandaries or problems is the best thing that we can do to prevent that now. So that’s definitely something that I advocate for as well. And getting diverse perspectives at the table when design decisions are being made. And definitely doing due diligence to ensure that we’re thinking through as designers, all the negative consequences of what we’re designing are all the potential quandaries of what we’re designing to avoid as much of that stuff as possible. But yeah, I totally agree. I think we’re, it’s not a binary world, and we’re all going to make ethical mistakes. I think that’s part of being humans. We can kind of create principles for ourselves to do better. And then I think that’s important.

Jeremy Wilken
Let’s take a concrete example and just point out and obviously there’s lots of ways to analyze this, but let’s just take it from the example of a health voice app that would give you some basic information like Web MD or something of that nature. to essentially give you that front line of it my is this is a cold Could this be something else and basic advice or information about what you might want to either follow up doing or maybe over the counter medicine, something like that? What are the potential things to consider in such an environment with either physical, emotional or psychological outcomes that may result from using such a device?

Brooke Hawkins
For sure, so I think, as a roundtable designers, if I work, we’re working on this, I would kind of start to point out ways that this interface could be helpful, and then ways that ultimately this interface could go awry. So fortunately, my mind is going to be right examples and this is a lot like what I designed to me so this is kind of similar to the design process we would do their number ultimately thinking about people talking to this new hotline in edge cases or situations where they have some sort of ailment or issue and perhaps were providing a wrong answer, I would determine I would call that an edge case. It’s not a happy path. So determining kind of what that might look like if if we provided an incorrect answer, and they perceive that as truth and then move forward with treatment, that doesn’t look great. So I would consider that an opportunity for designers to think about content or ways to revise our suggestion or remind people to get a second opinion from a doctor or whatever it might be, provide like a meter that shows how confident we are with that assessment to give people a little bit of comfort, but basically try to problem solve around something like that. I think also and this is similar to something that a design to me but sometimes people are interacting with these hotlines or things like this because they don’t have access to free and low cost health care. In general are don’t have access to a doctor that they can they can speak to. So perhaps they’re interacting with this tree nursing hotline because that is a replacement for that. So definitely thinking as much as possible about ways we can kind of link people to resources in their area if it necessitates doing so. So things like that, I think I would kind of those are two off the top of my head. But I think sitting in a roundtable with designers, I would kind of look at this nursing hotline and think about these kind of edge cases or customers that are people that are going to interact with this interface and perhaps not just receive a successful response about what they’re experiencing and then go on their way. But these kind of edge cases about what what people might hit or what they might actually need, aside from the basic service that we’re providing and how we can infuse that into our content and our logic as much as possible.

Jeremy Wilken
I really like and you keep circling to it. The edge cases the negative case, the non happy path and what can go wrong. And I think we, I’m in a design group and that we often like to think about All right, here’s how we’re going to delight our customer, and make everybody happy, and it’s going to be great. And we don’t spend enough time saying, All right, when, when it all burns down, what are we left with? And where are they? What if, in some cases, you have to also think about the context, you know, it’s one thing to build a little mobile app game and think about the ethics of that versus a health, which has far more potentially far more damaging consequences, although games can also become folks have had issues of addiction or there can be mental side effects of some games and so it it’s not always like just healthcare and law related stuff is where we need to worry about ethics, it can actually bridge into any place But definitely we can think more about when everybody’s in the wrong place. Whoops, where are we then? And what do we do about it?

Brooke Hawkins
Exactly. Yeah, I love what you just mentioned in terms of things that exist outside of like LA or healthcare. And I’m increasingly thinking about I’m a musician and my free time. So kind of thinking about the ways in general that we access music and art through voice devices. And the algorithm ways that we received this content so we’re kind of based on our interests, our likes, or we’re getting content delivered directly to us. And, and kind of thinking about the the negative aspects of that as well. There are consequences to you know, our, we’re receiving things that algorithms know that will like and enjoy, but perhaps that’s reducing our access to different artists or different types of art or different types of music that we naturally maybe would have discovered at our local record shop by building relationships with people but putting Our kind of relying on our Spotify weeklies to deliver us so completely I completely agree I think they’re kind of quandary So thinking about like what are what communities are we are we kind of getting rid of when we’re even doing something like designing for delight are the positives of the delight better than kind of the the subtracting of other things.

Jeremy Wilken
That’s a really good example and that’s when I’m actually starting to struggling with myself. I have younger children and they play music all the time through Google and that’s connected to a Spotify account because I was tired of it playing Disney music through my account and but then like it thanks in fact to this week, it’s still a gave me like three covers of the same Disney song and my discover weekly Spotify I was like, This is not quite what I want. But that’s that’s less of a problem as is that’s going into the randomness of what’s being played sometimes is out of my control and now is potentially being played on a smart speaker, you know, I have the control set and everything but my idea of what’s appropriate, and what has automated systems idea of what’s appropriate, don’t always match. I have less insight into how those decisions are made. And so we fortunately, we’re at a point where we can keep good enough eye on on it, and have some playlists and things that sort of curate a few songs. But occasionally, I hear a song that I think this is a remake of some not quite good sounding lyrics. Maybe they soften it for kids, but I’m like, this is not quite what I would have played. So it’s around us if we just stop and look at it. And sometimes we already feel those problems, but we don’t necessarily put them in the framework of an ethical question. We just think, Oh, this is really frustrating. How do I deal with this, but we can dig a little deeper and make that going back to the question of how do we identify these ethical challenges? Look at the things people want, look at the things that people are frustrated by Those might be cues for something deeper.

Brooke Hawkins
Totally. Yeah, I think I’m thinking increasingly about that my last position that I was working for was actually at an advertising agency helping the companies designed for voice and thinking about how to get basically their products and their branding out to consumers that are on voice. And yeah, that’s where I was. The author Really? Yeah, there’s a lot of delight in ordering things from Amazon or getting things quickly or doing online ordering or, you know, getting the things quickly. But ultimately, I think brands are thinking about how to monetize those experiences. And we’re kind of entering this new world where you say something like, I’d like laundry detergent and certain brands will always show up first. And yeah, what does that mean when your world and those kind of mundane choices already made for you, based on people at advertising agencies or people within these brands? So yeah, I think it definitely talking about the kind of the And, you know, these like MIDI ethical questions are really good. But yeah, I think we’re kind of getting into this a serial world where we’re, yeah, even the simplest mundane choices are sort of starting to be made for us. And I’m trying to think about what that future looks like. Maybe I want to make my mundane choices. Maybe I want to select what laundry detergent I want. Maybe there’s a consequence to that. So yeah, that’s an infinite world of ethical questions for sure.

Jeremy Wilken
Yeah, I, we could go on and on, I’m sure. But we’re getting close to the end here. So I wanted to throw out one more topic real fast and get your thoughts on. A little bit more tactical for folks who are building apps for like Google and Alexa. And they have only so much realm that they can control right, there’s still the base platform that they can’t control, but then they have their surface area that they can manage. So based on your experience, what are some things that people should be considering building these voice experience? is on top of those platforms, what kinds of things can they control? And what should they be thinking about?

Brooke Hawkins
Well, ultimately, I think as a designer, you’re still creating some kind of framing the way that these experiences have been designed, you’re still creating this little experience within a larger platform. So there are definitely things like making sure people understand where their data is going or what happens to their information when they’re interacting with your app or skill. So I think those are good things for designers to have covered in their little experience. But ultimately, you can kind of create this little utopian world, skill or app. So being very clear with your, your people that you’re interacting with, through content, allowing people to see a little bit of transparency with the decisions or the kind of behind the scenes algorithms that you’re probably making about what kind of information or content to deliver them. I think content currency and information to content as much as possible is was pretty powerful. So I think designers and developers can do a lot in that way. And then ultimately, yeah, I think just making sure that ethics is a part of, of your design and development and product process. So as you’re developing your voice experience, whether it’s a team of one or a team of hundreds, just make those ethical questions a part of your measurement and design processes. So obviously, before you launch something, try your best to ask these kind of hard hitting questions about negative ways people could be impacted by your designs. And then once you do launch, kind of create frameworks for yourself to measure and explore the ways people are interacting with your experience, to be sure that you can optimize and make it better for them over time. I think it could be really, really radical as well to create some kind of feedback loop from your users. Back to you And allow them to give, you know, perhaps longer form feedback about their experiences. So there’s a lot you can do in terms of measurement to make sure that you’re designing something that’s ultimately good for the people you’re trying to design for. So yeah, it can be easy. They can be very difficult, but I think ultimately involves like listening and engaging with those ethical questions.

Jeremy Wilken
I normally ask a recap question, like, what’s the top takeaway, but I think you just summarized A lot of it really, really well. So I think I’m gonna leave it with that, which is great. Yeah, bring it into your process. That seems simple, overarching advice, but it’s, it’s it’s more effort than we’ve been putting into it. And it’s about bringing it into not just the checklist at the end, but the foundation, as you’ve mentioned, in several different ways and thinking about those edge cases, the executives. So let’s wrap it up here, this the endpoint detection part of the show where we wrap things up, so I asked a couple questions. Questions of all my guests just to learn a bit more about you and some things that can help other people. So first question, what’s an interesting voice, app or experience that you’ve seen recently?

Brooke Hawkins
Yeah, so I did not specifically a voiceover experience. But I think it’s related to a lot of the things that we’re talking about in terms of these micro interactions, shaping our world of listening. But I recently saw that Spotify was actually doing a campaign where if you joined premium, you’d get a free Google Home Mini, to the, you know, the promotion to get you to listen to Spotify, and ultimately have a smart speaker in your home. And things like that, I think are so interesting, kind of the different inroads that people are getting into the voice ecosystem. And in particular, kind of starting your voice journey with, you know, a paid music experience like Spotify, and how that might shape the way you interact with voice or the way you explore artists or things like that. So, yeah, less. So I guess an interesting voiceover experience, but kind of an interesting like corporate voice sponsorship. And ultimately, I think we’ll have a lot of impacts on how people are interacting or experiencing voice. So yeah, I think things like that are interesting, especially coming from the advertising world. There are forces shaping our experiences. Because voices interface list that feels like we have access to everything, but I think partnerships like this kind of elucidate the fact that, yeah, there actually is a lot of shaping or interface happening behind the scenes. And it’s important to kind of tune yourself to that

Jeremy Wilken
picture. Yeah, I see those things as well. And I think a handful of my devices have come from those kinds of things. In fact, I’ve gotten one from Spotify for that reason. Because if you’re already a subscriber, you can still get one. So keep an eye out if you’re a Spotify person, and maybe you get a free Mini. So following up then what are some resources you would recommend to somebody Who would like to learn more about design for voice? Or ethics? Actually, let’s include ethics as well.

Brooke Hawkins
Sure, yeah, I would be remiss if I didn’t point out. So I designed a course for career foundry a couple of years ago on the intro for the UI design. So if you’re looking for a learning environment that’s more structured, and it’s a paid experience, I would definitely recommend that course. I worked really hard with the course designer, or co course designer there to infuse a lot of ethical principles and really get people grounded and questions of ethics in that course. So I think that’s a good starting point. I know that Twitter isn’t the most enjoyable place for everyone to be on, but I’ve really learned a lot from being there. So unfortunately, I have to recommend Twitter as an ecosystem. And just following voice designers in the industry there. You’ll find a lot of people at different voice industry conferences, and they’ll talk about themselves and their Twitter profiles and I definitely recommend following them there. You have access to all the world’s current voice designers. And you can ask them questions at any time. So you have to try to do this. And then also, Kathy pearl at Google does a great job, I think, both Amazon and Google, but Google has these kind of voice, videos or voice, how to it’s like a YouTube channel, where they’re explaining different principles of design. So definitely check those out. I think they break down the principles of designing for voice in a really cool way. And they’re easy to watch because they’re a little fun videos. Yeah, there’s a lot of voice books, I think, coming up in the industry, in particular about ethics as well. And I’m frustrated. I don’t have a good list of those after some, so maybe I’ll put together a tweet or good books I recommend and people can find them there.

Jeremy Wilken
I know of a one book feature ethics by Cennydd Bowles is really good.

Brooke Hawkins
yeah, he’s great. I would definitely put that in my list. Yeah, I talked to him frequently. Actually. He’s a Really cool at the CES that I think is doing great work and always trying to find ways to plug in together. So I keep tabs on his work for sure.

Jeremy Wilken
Great, and I’ll link all of these things in the show notes so people can quickly find these resources. And before we close the show, how can people learn more about you and your work? So specifically, what’s your Twitter account and things like that?

Brooke Hawkins
Sure. So people can find me on social media and on LinkedIn, my Twitter handle is Brooke be Hawkins and I think LinkedIn is the same so Brooke be Hawkins. I do have a website where I not very well keep track with the projects that I’m working on. But it’s Brooke Hawkins calm. Yeah, increasingly doing writing about ethics and stuff. So I would stay tuned to the Twitter account to they’ll they’ll be more coming soon.

Jeremy Wilken
Excellent. Thank you so much for joining me today. I would love to dig into this even further, and I’m certain we’ll have more shows on similar topics, but this was a really good overview. And I think we have a lot of actionable thoughts to put into practice especially designed. But I want to make sure to emphasize that developers and project managers, anybody should be heating these things as well and not just pushing it off to design. This is for everybody to take, take note of and to take action with.

Brooke Hawkins
Definitely, I would agree. And as designers know that other people in the room want this too. So you’re not alone. Or you don’t need to have those times alone frustrated thinking you’re the only at the system, the room everybody wants to design good thing. So more work can be done in groups. All right.

Jeremy Wilken
Well, thank you very much for joining me today, Brooke.

Brooke Hawkins
Thank you very much for having me.

Jeremy Wilken
Thank you for listening to today’s episode. And if you liked the show, please rate us on your favorite podcast player. All of the show notes are available on design for voice com

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